Shadows over Berkeley Mansions!

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Discussion question, 'cause it's been a while:

Who do you think, in the Woosterverse or wider Wodehouseverse, is really a bad person? As opposed to a person who would be bad for Bertie to marry, I mean, or who happens to intimidate him? Because it's pretty clear Bertie isn't always that smart about trusting people; it takes him a while to warm to Sir Roderick Glossop, who's essentially a good egg; he likes and calls Stiffy and Bobbie his friends, while Honoria scares him silly.

Who is eeeeevil, and why?

Comments

[spikejem.livejournal.com]

My vote is for Spode, who's just the perfect e. of evil. The brownshirt thing, and some of his more outre political theories, puts him firmly into the eeeeeevil camp.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

I think it's interesting how Wodehouse translates his dislike for people or ideas into poking gentle silly fun at them. (See: his feud with A.A. Milne (http://wodehouse.ru/dt310896.htm), and making "Christopher Robin" Madeline's favorite reading.)

Spode as Oswald Moseley is really tremendously clever, because how much more ridiculous could you make a Dictator look than by suggesting he designs women's lingerie? And making him be fatuously in love with a girl like Madeline, too. And at the same time, giving the character those soft spots makes him cuddly enough to not seem too glaringly out of place with the rest of the canon.

<3 Plum

[mechanicaljewel.livejournal.com]

Whoa. A.A. Milne sounds like a real douchebag. Esp. the way he treated his son. Meanwhile, Plum's stepdaughter has only glowing things to say about him ^_^

[ennui-blue-lite.livejournal.com]

IMO, Stiffy is probably the worst - a complete psychopath who will step on, ruin, injure, and who knows, maybe kill to get her way. Glossop's just a bit tightly wound, and not much is really wrong with Honoria, but Stiffy!

Other than that, most of the characters are simply self-centered (Bingo), mean spirited (Agatha), or fickle (Gussie). The only truly good character in the series, IMO, is Bertie, and to a lesser extent, Jeeves (I've read too many compelling arguments regarding a darkness in Jeeves to grant him the title of "Pure hearted character").

[envisogon.livejournal.com]

Good Question! I think out of the woman....

Stiffy- Because she is the type of person who is spoil and wants to have it her way all time.

Aunt Agatha: Her problem is that she comes from and Old school up bring. She lives by tradition and that fatal flaw in her mind she believes she during right but if some on looks out side in you will realize that she just hurting her relationships.

I realized by watching the series that in this universe all the woman is dominent or just plain Ditzy ( Madeline) and the men are almost Like a dear in the head light ( Bertie, Bingo) or Schemer ( Tuppy and Jeeves).

Out of the men

Spode - Because he is an complete Idiot and a jerk

Jeeves- I think he's could be the ultimate Evil doer if he wasn't commited to bertie. Most of his schemes for Bertie always or most of the time end up in he benefit or to teach poor Bertie a lesson. If he wasn't on Bertie's side He would ultimately do him in. And the fact that it only takes little or nothing to set him off e.g Bad choose in clothes.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

I agree about Agatha. She's hampered, too, by a basic lack of a sense of humor (though she occasionally seems to have a dash of the Wooster eloquence), and by being an absolutely miserable judge of character. She thinks the Hemmingways are trustworthy and Jeeves isn't; she thinks Bertie should be more like Claude and Eustace, who are such steady young boys!

Florence, I think, has a similar problem, and in many ways is kind of a younger, attractive version of Agatha. They both take themselves so desperately seriously. I have a sneaking fondness for Florence, though, because she really does seem to have affection for Bertie (albeit expressed very, very badly), and though she's unquestionably a bitch on wheels most of the time she's also still only about Bertie's age and has been raised to think a lot of herself. Besides, unlike Bertie I like lady novelists.

Jeeves is an evil genius. But we love him for it.

[axmxz.livejournal.com]

I vote for Jeeves as well. His dexterity is utterly sinister. His motives, I feel, are not entirely pure. He's a spider who found a tasty fly and is now making it a cozy web. I'm not even sure what would be creepier: if he were attached to Wooste for his money or because he developed feelings for him. In any case, Bertie is just so severely outclassed...

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Gussie I always find a lot more endearing in the series than in the books. The first actor who plays him is so adorable you can't help loving him, but book!Gussie has some kind of spiteful moments, and he has that tendency that most of Bertie's friends have to sneer at his intelligence and opinions and then come bleating to him for help as soon as anything goes wrong. I wouldn't say he's evil, though, and I think Emerald is a much better match for him than Madeline, who's just as fickle and would have made him wretched.

I agree that Stiffy is a piece of work. Poor Harold.

[tiye.livejournal.com]

I agree with ennui. Stiffy is by far the most evil of Bertie's associates (although I guess Brinkley is also pretty bad). Stiffy is something of an evil genius. I have always admired her profound powers of pure bitchitude.

I think Jeeves is just a little bit evil, too, but in a wonderful way.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Stiffy is pretty scary. I wonder if she'll get tired of Harold once she marries him, or throw her energies into making him a Bishop and become the terror of clergymen throughout England. It's a continual puzzle to me why Bertie goes on considering her a friend, but he does seem to have a weakness for the small, animated kind of girl.

I'm pretty sure Brinkley has some mental issues. Doesn't make me like him any more, though.

[acridmelanthe.livejournal.com]

Jeeves is definitely the most vindictive of the characters, stringing Bertie along and punishing him over petty things. However I think he clearly does it out of love, noticing in keen Jeevesian fashion that Bertie needs a daddy and stepping up to the task. I think Jeeves isn't evil because his motive is to help Bertie be a better person.

Stiffy--I think that is who I'm thinking of, the girls all run slightly together--is pretty damn unlikable for me, as is Honoria Glossop. Both are very selfish and domineering, wanting to get married to a meek fellow simply to mould him. That's reprehensible.

As a side note: Has anyone else been boycotting ask.com?

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

So then what's the dividing line between helping someone to be a better person and wanting to mould him?

[acridmelanthe.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I think it's the same as the dividing line between a good parent and a bad one.

[vertigomac.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, when I first started reading the Jeeves stories, I didn't like any of Bertie's friends. I just wanted to bitch-slap the whole useless brain-dead self-involved bunch.

Still don't like Tuppy or Bingo, much.

Have become fond of Gussie and Honoria

Evil? I agree with votes for Spode and Spiffy.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

I think the one of Bertie's peers - you can't really call him a friend - I like least is Stilton. He's always nasty and unpleasant to Bertie, and for no discernable reason; in the the beginning, at the start of Joy in the Morning, Bertie runs into him and buzzes up all bonhomie and friendliness towards the old schoolmate; Stilton just kind of snarls. And Bertie's still full of enough goodwill to want to do the chap a good turn and dislodge him from the dire fate of marrying Florence. Not that he wants to be dislodged, but Bertie's still putting himself into the line of fire just to help a friend.

When he's not actively threatening to arrest Bertie or rip out his spine, he's obnoxiously self-satisfied and priggish. And, all in all, not too intelligent, either.

[comrade-sir.livejournal.com]

Stiffy gets my ultimate King Kamehameha EVIL vote...she doesn't care who she manipulates or what harm will come to them as long as she gets her way!

I also don't like the way Bingo uses Bertie's friendship to manipulate him.

And sorry, but Jeeves-oh, SO evil! If he wasn't loyal to *coughsmittenwithcough* Bertie, he would be a badass of the first water! I mean, come on, remember The Inimitable Jeeves when he got those LITTLE GIRLS disqualified from their church (I think) treat so Bertie could win a bet? Or when he kind of, you know, assaulted a police officer? It's a good thing for him he's so gosh-darned DELICIOUS or I might be tempted to disapprove of him for dear, sweet Bertram;)

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

O_o ...What's wrong with King Kamehameha?

Yeah, I don't really like that about Bingo, either. Of course, all Bertie's friends do that. Isn't there something in The Inimitable Jeeves where Bertie says he's always been a little older and inclined to look after Bingo? Or am I mixing that up with something in Wodehouse's own life? Because that sort of younger-older brother relationship would make it a little more understandable.

As for Jeeves - I'm sorry, but what kind of guy carries around a supply of knockout drops just in case they come in handy? You know someone's scary when you'd be reassured to find out they're a spy in their free time...

[emeraldreeve.livejournal.com]

I don't like the way many of Bertie's 'friends' use him, but I'd reserve the term evil for those that threatened to harm him-Spode, Stilton, and whoever it was that tied him up that time. I don't think Jeeves is evil but hitting Bertie over the head was.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Tied him up? *tries to remember*

A good many of Bertie's friends threaten him - he seems to bring that out in people - but most of them probably don't mean it. Chuffy, for instance. The ones that probably do intend or inflict bodily harm, then...let's see, that would also include Lord Worplesdon, Brinkley...and Jeeves. Fair enough. ^_^

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

I vote Spode, 'cause he's a Nazi. Sort of.

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I guess I should throw my hat in with the, "I hate to say it, but Jeeves, also evil" votes. Though I prefer to see him as not-evil?

Clearly, on some level, I find Jeeves scary, or I wouldn't feel the need to mock him in icons. *points to viking hat* *loves Jeeves despite it all*

[humanyouth.livejournal.com]

Jeeves. Jeeves is evil.

And we love him.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

That seems to be the consensus, yeah. XD

And now, because I'm just that much of a geek, I'm thinking "lawful, neutral, or chaotic evil?"

[softestbullet (from livejournal.com)]

I love and agree with all your comments in this post!