Shadows over Berkeley Mansions!

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Discussion question, 'cause it's been a while:

Who do you think, in the Woosterverse or wider Wodehouseverse, is really a bad person? As opposed to a person who would be bad for Bertie to marry, I mean, or who happens to intimidate him? Because it's pretty clear Bertie isn't always that smart about trusting people; it takes him a while to warm to Sir Roderick Glossop, who's essentially a good egg; he likes and calls Stiffy and Bobbie his friends, while Honoria scares him silly.

Who is eeeeevil, and why?

Comments

[envisogon.livejournal.com]

Good Question! I think out of the woman....

Stiffy- Because she is the type of person who is spoil and wants to have it her way all time.

Aunt Agatha: Her problem is that she comes from and Old school up bring. She lives by tradition and that fatal flaw in her mind she believes she during right but if some on looks out side in you will realize that she just hurting her relationships.

I realized by watching the series that in this universe all the woman is dominent or just plain Ditzy ( Madeline) and the men are almost Like a dear in the head light ( Bertie, Bingo) or Schemer ( Tuppy and Jeeves).

Out of the men

Spode - Because he is an complete Idiot and a jerk

Jeeves- I think he's could be the ultimate Evil doer if he wasn't commited to bertie. Most of his schemes for Bertie always or most of the time end up in he benefit or to teach poor Bertie a lesson. If he wasn't on Bertie's side He would ultimately do him in. And the fact that it only takes little or nothing to set him off e.g Bad choose in clothes.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

I agree about Agatha. She's hampered, too, by a basic lack of a sense of humor (though she occasionally seems to have a dash of the Wooster eloquence), and by being an absolutely miserable judge of character. She thinks the Hemmingways are trustworthy and Jeeves isn't; she thinks Bertie should be more like Claude and Eustace, who are such steady young boys!

Florence, I think, has a similar problem, and in many ways is kind of a younger, attractive version of Agatha. They both take themselves so desperately seriously. I have a sneaking fondness for Florence, though, because she really does seem to have affection for Bertie (albeit expressed very, very badly), and though she's unquestionably a bitch on wheels most of the time she's also still only about Bertie's age and has been raised to think a lot of herself. Besides, unlike Bertie I like lady novelists.

Jeeves is an evil genius. But we love him for it.

[envisogon.livejournal.com]

Claude and Eustace are complete gits. Bertie should be glad that he is not like them.

Honoria has to be my favorite out of all of the woman. She was tom-boyish she wasn't like a normal Lady should be raised and I thought that Honoria would have been perfect for bertie. I couldn't get around Florance. I guess because she was too possessive.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Of course, Claude and Eustace's father ended his life in a sanatorium, surrounded by a bunch of rabbits. So you've got to make some allowance... XD

[axmxz.livejournal.com]

I vote for Jeeves as well. His dexterity is utterly sinister. His motives, I feel, are not entirely pure. He's a spider who found a tasty fly and is now making it a cozy web. I'm not even sure what would be creepier: if he were attached to Wooste for his money or because he developed feelings for him. In any case, Bertie is just so severely outclassed...

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

I guess the way a lot of shippers get around this issue is by assuming Bertie is to some extent aware of what's going on in their dynamic and consents to it. But it is just a bit twisted either way, yeah.

[axmxz.livejournal.com]

Well, Bertie may consent, but it's rather doubtful whether his consent can carry any weight... it's rather akin to the consent of a manipulated minor. I mean, legally, he's an adult, but mentally, especially compared to Jeeves?

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

The funny thing is, though, that a whole lot of Wodehouse's canon pairings have something like that balance. One partner who's dreamy or impractical, and one who steers him (the impractical one's nearly always the boy) and makes sure things go their way. God only knows what this says about his own marriage/close friendships/self-esteem, but that seems to be, rightly or wrongly, his idea of how partnerships work. Just look at "Bill." (http://www.lyricskeeper.com/showboat_soundtrack-lyrics/204016-bill-lyrics.htm)

[axmxz.livejournal.com]

I agree; it's just that in Bertie's case, his partner is just on a different planet from him.

[axmxz.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't have been impossible, I think, for Wodehouse to make them slightly more equal. I mean, look at Mike and Psmith. Yes, Psmith is the loquacious genius, but Mike is the muscle, amiability and, frankly, the common sense. (A Fry/Laurie pair if there ever was one.) Whereas Bertie contributes just about nothing to the partnership besides his perpetual confusion and helplessness.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

You know, I know that's a common perception, but honestly I've never agreed with it. Even if Bertie would have, himself.

Maybe it's a fanwank on my part; I know I'm hardly unbiased, having a fairly massive crush on my concept of Bertie. But I tend to interpret Bertie as - increasingly as canon goes on - something of a reflection of Wodehouse himself, with a certain investment in making himself seem silly and inoffensive. They had a similar way of shying from open argument or hostility, and remaining forever cheery and polite. So (a) I don't think Bertie is as stupid as he and his friends make him out to be. I think he's flaky, impractical, and self-deprecating.

On the other hand, Bertie's kind. He's generous with his time, attention and (for that matter) money. Even if you're not looking at them as a slash pairing at all, it's a pretty rare thing to have an employer who, in addition to paying you a whacking great salary, consults you in everything, compliments you constantly, asks after your family, and asks you if there's anything you'd like as a present because he happens to be going out and would like to buy you something. I mean, I've never had an employer like that, have you?

If you're a manipulative person yourself, it can be incredibly hard to find someone you can trust. And Jeeves knows he can trust Bertie, and that whatever he does he'll be forgiven just because Bertie always does forgive his friends. Jeeves more than anyone. Judging from how Jeeves acts with some of his other employers, he's well aware of the value of all of this.

And then there's the basic practical fact that it's Bertie's money and amiability that allows both of them to live in the style to which they're accustomed. Which maybe seems a bit icky and mercenary if you're looking at it from a marrying-for-money standpoint, but hey, it's his job, and specifically awarded for waiting on the guy hand and foot and going above and beyond the call of duty to make sure he stays happy. You can say that it's unequal, but if Bertie wasn't employing Jeeves they'd have no reason to be interacting or to ever have become friends, class barriers being what they are.

Which maybe makes the whole thing unhealthy and severely co-dependent, but I don't think it makes it one-way. Your mileage may vary a lot, though.

[axmxz.livejournal.com]

I don't so much think that Bertie is stupid as he is - or lets himself be - a dupe. Intellectualism doesn't even enter into this: he's severely outclassed in street-smarts.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure he wants street-smarts, though. Why should he, when he can get someone else to take care of him and protect his illusions? Which is the besetting fault of all the aristocrats in Wodehouse. Even the ones who seem practical aren't really. If Bertie stood up for himself (and I doubt he'd ever be very good at it), he'd pretty much have to abandon the Code of the Woosters.

I think Bertie has moments of wanting to be smart and capable, but it's in much the same naive spirit as he wants to be dashing and attractive and generally admirable. His ideal notion of himself would be a Scarlet Pimpernel kind of chappie, "laughing down from beneath lazy eyelids and flicking a speck of dust from the impeccable Mechlin lace of his sleeves." But most of the time he's perfectly content to be called a silly ass, as long as it's done with love.

[margi-lynn.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. (but you already knew that the two of us are biased along the same lines)

And with the look at Jeeves' point of view in "Bertie Changes His Mind" it becomes really obvious that Jeeves, for all his faults really cares about Bertie. It's just that Bertie doesn't really want to be out of his comfort zone at all, and Jeeves is more than happy to ensure that Bertie is happy.

In an ideal situation, Bertie and Jeeves would go out to their respective clubs, dine, go to the country/French Riviera/New York/on a cruise, and bet on really odd things and horses alike. Bertie is as much a homebody as Gussie, only he likes the city.

Bertie likes being moulded by Jeeves, even if he doesn't really recognize it; if you pay attention to Bertie's speech, over the course of the series Bertie likes to play around with phrases and quotations he hears Jeeves use.

He DOES admittedly like to buy really horrible clothing (imagine Hufflepuff striped spats - what the hell would they go with? And Bertie wears only those particular spats throughout that whole book! Ick!) possibly because he knows it pisses Jeeves off.

I mean, would a man who felt uncomfortable at all with his valet wouldn't reward him with a trip together around the world, now would he?

I still don't know about Stiffy. Yeah, she's only out for herself, but she's a much lesser evil than Jeeves. Much Lesser.

[envisogon.livejournal.com]

I think in the beginning he was just doing his job the best way he knows how. I like to think of Jeeves as a closer type. He is the last resort. For people like Bertie. Jeeves has an incredible track record. He probably started out thinking it as a challenge then as time went by he started to have feelings toward Bertie. Because of the idiots that he has to put up with.

I mean when you look at the big picture you actually feel sorry for Bertie because like you said he is "outclassed" His friends uses him and take his kindness as weakness. And the fact that he uses his code of the wooster. This open up to blackmail,Extortion all types of things because he values his friendships and family.

Near the end Jeeves starts to mold his motives and starts to become more protective of Berties interest then his own. And he probably is attracted to Bertie as well. But, He is still sneaky having a girlfriend in "Jeeves and the matchmaker" and then when the girlfriend runs off with another Man. He steal Bingo's girlfriend. Now that's evil and delicious.

[margi-lynn.livejournal.com]

I would have to concur; Jeeves is the only person in the series I'd attribute the adjective 'evil' to a character sheet. Spode is bombastic to say the least, but not deliberately malevolent. All of the women are not concerned about taking into consideration Bertie's feelings at all, but with the expectation of Dahlia, no one even comes close to crossing the line into a deliberate wish for another's pain and suffering.

Even Jeeves is less evil and just is a sociopath, really, IMO. I would say that he is less likely to just do crazy things with the intent to hurt, but Jeeves has never gone out of his way to help even Bertie. Jeeves is all about Jeeves.

[axmxz.livejournal.com]

Apropos of nothing, I've just spent two minutes reading your icon and almost peed myself laughing.

[margi-lynn.livejournal.com]

Personally, it's the bestest in the whole wide world. If I could draw, I'd love someone to do a similar art-style one for Bertie and Jeeves. I may just ask as a small contest soon and host all of them. lolz

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Well, a lot of people would say sociopaths are evil. It's probably the mental disorder most likely to get that judgement, really; kind of started out as a psychiatric catch-all term for "we don't know what's up with these people but they scare the hell out of us."

To play devil's advocate on this point, why do you say Jeeves has never gone out of his way to help? It seems to me that's what the stories are all about. After all, his job really isn't to get involved in the personal life of his master and of his master's friends. And yeah, he gets lavished with tips and affection every time he pulls off another miracle, and he gets to dump whatever objectionable clothing article Bertie's got in the trash, but...why would he care about any of that? Besides the money, anyway, and there have to be easier ways to get that.

And you could say what he really enjoys is messing with everybody's head, but though he obviously enjoys watching things go boom sometimes, he very carefully makes sure everything comes out in the best possible way in this best of all possible worlds. Even the people he's not crazy about. Really, the only person who generally gets screwed over at the end is Bertie, and Bertie...doesn't usually mind. Not so much that he doesn't just forgive and forget.

[xidiomaticlogic.livejournal.com]

I agree with some of the people further up the thread who said that they see the Bertie/Jeeves relationship as more benign than this.

If I had to apply the word "evil" to a Woosterverse character, it would be Jeeves, I agree. But less in a selfish, sociopathic way, and more in a cunning, slick black hair sort of way. What always struck me as so charming about the Jeeves/Wooster dynamic was the fact that they're both terribly dysfunctional people who have found their perfect match.

Jeeves, admittedly, is frighteningly intelligent, manipulative, and a control freak. But, as is hinted at elsewhere and pretty much proved in "Bertie Changes His Mind", he really cares about Bertie and enjoys their 'living arrangement'. As I believe he says in that story, Bertie's perfect in every sense apart from the fact that he's a complete airhead, and that "Employers need to be managed, like horses". That's Jeeves' mindset I think; He doesn't torture Bertie on purpose, or particularly 'use' him for anything, but he... er... does treat him like a particularly well-loved horse, but a horse nonetheless.

And Bertie, I feel, is perfectly fine with that. He is constantly picking up little bits of intelligence from Jeeves, and - let's face it - the poor boy can't make his tea without assistance. He's domestically dependent, and as long as everything works out reasonably well, he's *perfectly happy*. He bounces right back from humiliating situations, and genuinely seems to not mind Jeeves guiding him through his daily life. In fact, he seems rather proud of it.

Okay, that got kind of rambly, but my point was that, though Jeeves does have a bit of evil in him, it really works out for the best for both of them, and that's why their relationship is so sweet.