Shadows over Berkeley Mansions!

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Discussion question, 'cause it's been a while:

Who do you think, in the Woosterverse or wider Wodehouseverse, is really a bad person? As opposed to a person who would be bad for Bertie to marry, I mean, or who happens to intimidate him? Because it's pretty clear Bertie isn't always that smart about trusting people; it takes him a while to warm to Sir Roderick Glossop, who's essentially a good egg; he likes and calls Stiffy and Bobbie his friends, while Honoria scares him silly.

Who is eeeeevil, and why?

Comments

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

So then what's the dividing line between helping someone to be a better person and wanting to mould him?

[acridmelanthe.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I think it's the same as the dividing line between a good parent and a bad one.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Point. But just to play devil's advocate*, what if some of that is Bertie's perception of the two? That he likes Jeeves and doesn't like Florence or Honoria? Because, you know, if Agatha is ever right about anything, she's right about Bertie needing someone strong and level-headed to look after him; it's just that she can't see he's already found that in Jeeves.

*Trans.: I'm bored right now and in the mood for fanchatter.

[acridmelanthe.livejournal.com]

I love your point as well.

[acridmelanthe.livejournal.com]

Also, your icon is hilarious. What's it from?

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

You know, I ganked it about two years ago without noting who made. *feels guilty* Anyway, it's cover art (http://images.google.com/images?um=1&tab=wi&client=firefox-a&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22Stiff%20Upper%20Lip%2C%20Jeeves%22) for the BBC adaptation of Stiff Upper Lip, Jeeves. You know, the bit where he hides behind the sofa with Madeline's picture while Mads and Hilda come in? And then the dog barks and Hilda thinks he's a burglar (which, technically, he is) and whips out a gun?

It has many uses. ^_^

(Also, looking for that link, I came across this cover (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/c1/c7647.jpg), and while I'm not crazy about monocled!Bertie, that is one awesomely evil Jeeves.)

[iridaceaena.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I'm going to jump in here. I think part of the reason Jeeves comes across as "good" while the others are "bad" is the order of magnitude we're talking about - disapproving of Bertie's socks or spats or mustache is a far cry from pestering him to change his fundamental personality, which is what Aunt Agatha and the fiancées seem to be after. I think how Jeeves goes about it is also important; he never just disposes of Bertie's clothes (to take an example) the moment he sees them without consulting Bertie about it. He and Bertie seem to have come to an unspoken agreement that when Jeeves has performed a certain amount of service above and beyond the normal call of duty, he is entitled to take compensation in the form of whatever he and Bertie have been clashing over recently. It's also interesting that he and Bertie seem to be in perfect accord about what that level of service is - even when Jeeves gets rid of something without Bertie's express permission, it's always right about the same time Bertie decides to let him have it. Say what you like about Jeeves's manipulations, a barter arrangement wherein both parties benefit - even if it's lopsided in Jeeves's favor - empowers Bertie a heck of a lot more than just making him into a child who is ordered to do something "because I said so" or victimizing him through blackmail.

...Not that I'm claiming Jeeves isn't evil or anything, because there are times when he crosses the line so far that he almost catches up with Stiffy, who routinely uses said line as the starting marker for a marathon. Still, generally speaking, I'd say he's more inclined to play fair than are the others.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Icon! *dies*

I definitely agree with all of the above. The only thing I'd add is that, while, say, Agatha for example may be severely misguided in the way she deals with Bertie, I don't think it necessarily makes her bad. Just uninsightful, and bad for him. Like all Wodehouse characters she's got her controlling obsessions she finds it hard to see past. But, like I said elsewhere here, she's not wrong about Bertie needing a guiding hand, she's just got a fixed idea of what kind of person that hand should belong to. And it seems like a lot of people here are in agreement with her over Jeeves's influence over Bertie being a liiiittle disturbing. From her standpoint, what reason does she have to think that it's totally benign? Aside from the fact that Bertie's happy as he is, and if there's one point on which she's blind, it's understanding that.

So I guess it all comes down to the question of seeing other people clearly and not in the light of what you want or expect them to be. Which is a bad failing, but a pretty human one.

As for Honoria, I kind of wonder if a lot of her perceived desire to "mould" Bertie isn't a function of his "I hate conflict, but that doesn't mean I agree with you" approach to life in general and women in particular. He finds her intimidating, and knows he'd always end up kowtowing to her, but I don't think that's what she intends. The best fannish description I ever read of Honoria is that she's really kind of like a big friendly dog who jumps up to greet you and then is puzzled to find you on the floor.

...I think I just like every character in canon, or very nearly. The reason I raised the question to begin with is that, for the most part, I just want to snuggle all of them. ^_^

[margi-lynn.livejournal.com]

I think that I also agree with you here, and want to ask the question as to Bertie just saying no. Because in the end, all the problems Bertie goes through with girls all end up with the fact that Bertie has no spine. Yeah, it's a real bitch to be told, "No, I just don't like you that way; I'll have to decline your proposal," but in the end it's gotta be a hellva lot better than being unhappy for the duration of your marriage.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

And that, I think, is Bertie's big fault - or virtue exaggerated into a fault, really. He just can't stand up for himself. When he tries to stand up to his friends, they either sweettalk or blackmail him. When he tries to stand up to an aunt, he gets steamrollered. He never even feels he can start to stand up to any of his fiancees. At least with Jeeves he tries, and goes through a bit of a struggle that generally leaves him happy in the end, feeling he's made some kind of compromise and that someone's looking after him.

I always wonder, what would have happened if he and Jeeves never met?

[margi-lynn.livejournal.com]

All things considering? Probably driven to drink himself to death or just plain never go home after him and the little wife finally got past the honeymoon-discomfort of freshly moving in together.

Yay for meeting Jeeves!

[iridaceaena.livejournal.com]

Heh. Holmes is a dork, and that's why he's awesome.

You're right, of course; I didn't mean to imply that the characters themselves are bad so much as their ways of dealing with Bertie aren't good for him. That's actually one of my favorite things about Wodehouse - the characters might be monumentally self-absorbed or completely off their rocker, but they still come across as generally decent people who just happen to have a few little quirks.

But, like I said elsewhere here, she's not wrong about Bertie needing a guiding hand, she's just got a fixed idea of what kind of person that hand should belong to. And it seems like a lot of people here are in agreement with her over Jeeves's influence over Bertie being a liiiittle disturbing. From her standpoint, what reason does she have to think that it's totally benign?

I'm not sure it's exactly that Agatha cares what kind of guidance Bertie gets so much as she just wants him to obey social norms, which includes getting married; she's been willing to marry Bertie off to every personality type from Florence to Madeline, and I bet that if Jeeves were a female aristocrat, she'd hand Bertie over with thanks. I think Agatha dislikes Jeeves primarily because he violates the class structure with his influence over Bertie - Bertie comments that Agatha thinks Jeeves is too controlling, but Bertie's biggest goal in life is to keep Agatha from finding out about most of the trouble he gets into, so I'm not sure if she knows how manipulative Jeeves can be when he really gets down to it. Dahlia could tell her, of course, but I always assumed she and Agatha were probably not the sort of bosom buddies who engaged in much deep discussion about that sort of thing. I just figured Agatha got tired of having every third sentence out of Bertie's mouth include the phrase "Jeeves says..." somewhere. Agatha's main problem to me is that she's very, very fixated on status and society, which, yeah, was basically a roundabout way of coming back and agreeing with your main point, because that doesn't necessarily make her a bad person.

I don't quite know how to read Honoria. I would be willing to give her the benefit of the doubt about her behavior to Bertie, given that half his trouble with women is his own fault for not speaking up for himself, except that the one time he does try to assert himself, she steamrollers over him anyway. Admittedly, the fact that they were arguing over Jeeves and his influence is probably a factor, but that's still a fairly deliberate, controlling action, especially the way she says it. Even so, I like her best of the fiancées, because she really can be awfully sweet in that big, doofy dog way (although Madeline makes me laugh more).

...I think I just like every character in canon, or very nearly. The reason I raised the question to begin with is that, for the most part, I just want to snuggle all of them. ^_^

I've learned not to read Jeeves and Wooster in public; all the characters are so ridiculously cute that I can't stop bouncing and giggling - which is fun and all, but it's sort of inconvenient for all the people who evidently feel better crowding together on the other side of the sidewalk.

[innocentsmith.livejournal.com]

Totally. This would be why Brett is my One True Holmes. XD And I just googled "a hard, gemlike flame" (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,792135-2,00.html) and knowing the reference only makes it better. "Oh, for Crime!" forsooth!

'm not sure it's exactly that Agatha cares what kind of guidance Bertie gets so much as she just wants him to obey social norms, which includes getting married

Exactly. Her idea of the guiding hand he needs is that of a blue-blooded female, and that's about as complex as her ideas get on the subj. She probably also wants him to Make Something Of Himself. Sort of in the same way she sends young Thos. to see improving plays; it's her idea of how to be involved in family matters, bossing the hell out of them.

I always assumed she and Agatha were probably not the sort of bosom buddies who engaged in much deep discussion about that sort of thing.

*g* I figure they bicker like mad, actually. Dahlia seems younger, and by her own admission was a huge tomboy who wandered around in muddy boots followed by a crowd of dogs, using penetrating hunting oaths. It must've driven Agatha crazy. Besides, there's some story where Bertie's explaining to Dahlia about getting trapped into marrying...Florence or Honoria, I can't remember. And Dahlia says, "Yes, but she'd want to mould you. You wouldn't like that."

I've learned not to read Jeeves and Wooster in public

I think I've given up on not looking like a fruit loop in public; I just need to remember not to do it at work.

[iridaceaena.livejournal.com]

Actually, if it came right down to it, I might have to side with Clive Merrison as Holmes, because the BBC7 radio dramas are just that fantastic, but it would be a very close call. That "glee" icon is terribly appropriate on a number of levels.

My Victorian Lit class actually spent an entire period talking about Holmes and Pater and Holmes's gemlike flame. That was the best class ever.

*g* I figure they bicker like mad, actually. Dahlia seems younger, and by her own admission was a huge tomboy who wandered around in muddy boots followed by a crowd of dogs, using penetrating hunting oaths. It must've driven Agatha crazy.

There was probably a decent age gap between Dahlia and Agatha, too - Agatha seems like such a matriarch that I tend to place her as the oldest, or at least the oldest girl, while Dahlia does come across as one of the youngest (of course, that might just be because she has the best sense of humor). I bet Agatha was expected to look after Dahlia, and Dahlia was always slipping out of her lady-lessons and running off to hunt and learn interesting new vocabulary words. Now that I think about it, if Bertie and Honoria ever did somehow marry and have a child, it could resemble Dahlia quite a bit - Honoria's boisterousness and athleticism and Bertie's easygoing attitude and penchant for getting into trouble. Agatha seems especially fond of Honoria, too, so who knows? It could be that she's nostalgic after all. Of course, Honoria seems more intellectual than Dahlia, so maybe therein lies the difference.

...Okay, now I really want someone to write something like a Wooster family Christmas when all the aunts and uncles were young. I bet Bertie's father was just like Bertie - terrified of Agatha and palling around with Dahlia all the time. Oh, it'd be darling.

I think I've given up on not looking like a fruit loop in public; I just need to remember not to do it at work.

It's terribly effective at keeping people from coming up and pestering you with pointless questions, though!