I had no idea that my seme/uke musing would create such a big stir, so I deleted the entry and would like to make a formal apology for arousing everyone's ire. :(
I hope everything didn't blow up too badly. I mostly stayed away from the entry when it first came up, because the topic's not my cup of tea, but I can still see why others would be interested in talking about it. Deleting the entry probably was a better idea then keeping it up; no reason to keep the argument alive and accessible.
Terribly sorry to but in - well, not really - but arguments are a good thing. However would anything change if the line of thought was "no reason to keep the argument alive and accessible"?
And yes, it's possible that it would've changed something. Maybe a new person would've joined the comm, found the thread, realized new things, and written the kinds of fics that are rare in this fandom. (As well as got more aware of their own and other people's socially conditioned line of thinking.) Who knows. Either way, it's not like the argument would've killed this community or its peace or anything.
And it's not like it would've been "alive" that long - a couple of days and it would've been so far back in people's flists they'd have started to forget the whole thing.
Btw, I'm not trying to cause an argument here. Really I'm not, lol.
Maybe argument was the wrong word choice. When I read some of the comments to the entry, it didn't seem like a discussion. Or the 'agree to disagree' type.
Don't understand your second sentence.
And I agree discussing something is good, but it shouldn't blow up to the point were people are posting unnecessary comments, and etc. Of course, I have my own opinion on what an unnecessary comment is.
And now that you brought it up, I see what you mean about new (fic) ideas being generated.
D/S is also another topic that I've seen to be okay with some people, and not with others. So the seme/uke problem kind of confused me. I probably wouldn't have made a big difference in another comm.
Of course, I didn't read the whole post, so I don't understand everything that happen. It's possible that I just happened to read the only bad comments.
And you're right, after a couple of days, I'm sure people would have forgotten about the whole thing.
But my point is, from what I assumed, (and yeah I know assuming is bad) it didn't look like a discussion. And maybe deleting the post wasn't such a good idea, but I wasn't there, so I don't know.
Also my previous comment was probably influenced but what happened early to me that day. My mom was really anger with someone else, and she asked me "mediate", because she won't talk when she gets that way. After all that yelling, I just couldn't stand any kind of disapproving words.
And don't worry I know that you weren't trying to start an argument :)
Last I looked, it was evolving into a discussion, if not already a discussion. At any rate, it was interesting and people were exchanging ideas, and even a question or two were asked.
However would anything change if the line of thought was "no reason to keep the argument alive and accessible? = If people keep stiffling arguments, no change or new ideas will occur. Kind of like, somebody says something, say, misogynist and if you complain, you get told "don't cause an argument, it was just a joke". So you keep your mouth shut and the misogynist jokes continue, and nobody's way of thinking gets changed or even challenged.
"And I agree discussing something is good, but it shouldn't blow up to the point were people are posting unnecessary comments, and etc. Of course, I have my own opinion on what an unnecessary comment is."
Indeed, you have. I don't remember any particularly unnecessary comments - well, I think there were two expressing the sentiment "not Japan, AGAIN," and a couple saying "they have a bit of both in them," but that was it. And those weren't part of the discussion.
"D/S is also another topic that I've seen to be okay with some people, and not with others. So the seme/uke problem kind of confused me. I probably wouldn't have made a big difference in another comm."
Not the same thing. Seme/uke was being used with the idea that top = dom & bottom = sub, which is what became a topic of discussion. D/s is totally different, and whether people feel ok about it is irrelevant when the subject was that the top = dom & bottom = sub idea is illogical and sexist.
I guess we just have different opinions on how discussions should take place. I think that arguing about anything fandom related can quickly get out of hand, and I thought that was the case. But again, I didn't read much, so I'm just guessing.
I don't understand your last paragraph. I had thought seme/uke, and d/s had the same idea to them. Were they discussing how s/u was illogical and sexist? Because then I believe that would be unnecessary to the discussion, since the topic was how s/u could be applied to J/W. 'Don't like what's being talked about, and can't come up with a reasonable comment to state your ideas, then you probably shouldn't enter the conversation.'
But that's my idea, and I know how that there is different ways a discussion can go, as well as how the entry should have been handled.
Well, you're guessing wrong. Anything wasn't even remotely reminding things getting out of hand.
No, no, I meant that D/s is totally different than top = dom & bottom = sub. As far as I know, seme/uke is just the Japanese (fandom?) way of saying D/s.
And no, we weren't discussing how D/s is illogical or sexist (because it isn't) but - as I said - how that being on top (i.e. doing the penetrating) is automatically taken to mean that one is in charge/dominating/manly, and that similarly being on bottom (i.e. being penetrated) is automatically taken to mean that one is submissive/meek/womanly is illogical and sexist.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-09 02:16 am (UTC)Deleting the entry probably was a better idea then keeping it up; no reason to keep the argument alive and accessible.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-09 12:21 pm (UTC)And yes, it's possible that it would've changed something. Maybe a new person would've joined the comm, found the thread, realized new things, and written the kinds of fics that are rare in this fandom. (As well as got more aware of their own and other people's socially conditioned line of thinking.) Who knows. Either way, it's not like the argument would've killed this community or its peace or anything.
And it's not like it would've been "alive" that long - a couple of days and it would've been so far back in people's flists they'd have started to forget the whole thing.
Btw, I'm not trying to cause an argument here. Really I'm not, lol.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-09 01:53 pm (UTC)Don't understand your second sentence.
And I agree discussing something is good, but it shouldn't blow up to the point were people are posting unnecessary comments, and etc. Of course, I have my own opinion on what an unnecessary comment is.
And now that you brought it up, I see what you mean about new (fic) ideas being generated.
D/S is also another topic that I've seen to be okay with some people, and not with others. So the seme/uke problem kind of confused me. I probably wouldn't have made a big difference in another comm.
Of course, I didn't read the whole post, so I don't understand everything that happen. It's possible that I just happened to read the only bad comments.
And you're right, after a couple of days, I'm sure people would have forgotten about the whole thing.
But my point is, from what I assumed, (and yeah I know assuming is bad) it didn't look like a discussion. And maybe deleting the post wasn't such a good idea, but I wasn't there, so I don't know.
Also my previous comment was probably influenced but what happened early to me that day. My mom was really anger with someone else, and she asked me "mediate", because she won't talk when she gets that way. After all that yelling, I just couldn't stand any kind of disapproving words.
And don't worry I know that you weren't trying to start an argument :)
no subject
Date: 2009-06-10 12:02 am (UTC)However would anything change if the line of thought was "no reason to keep the argument alive and accessible? = If people keep stiffling arguments, no change or new ideas will occur. Kind of like, somebody says something, say, misogynist and if you complain, you get told "don't cause an argument, it was just a joke". So you keep your mouth shut and the misogynist jokes continue, and nobody's way of thinking gets changed or even challenged.
"And I agree discussing something is good, but it shouldn't blow up to the point were people are posting unnecessary comments, and etc. Of course, I have my own opinion on what an unnecessary comment is."
Indeed, you have. I don't remember any particularly unnecessary comments - well, I think there were two expressing the sentiment "not Japan, AGAIN," and a couple saying "they have a bit of both in them," but that was it. And those weren't part of the discussion.
"D/S is also another topic that I've seen to be okay with some people, and not with others. So the seme/uke problem kind of confused me. I probably wouldn't have made a big difference in another comm."
Not the same thing. Seme/uke was being used with the idea that top = dom & bottom = sub, which is what became a topic of discussion. D/s is totally different, and whether people feel ok about it is irrelevant when the subject was that the top = dom & bottom = sub idea is illogical and sexist.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-10 01:07 am (UTC)I don't understand your last paragraph. I had thought seme/uke, and d/s had the same idea to them. Were they discussing how s/u was illogical and sexist? Because then I believe that would be unnecessary to the discussion, since the topic was how s/u could be applied to J/W. 'Don't like what's being talked about, and can't come up with a reasonable comment to state your ideas, then you probably shouldn't enter the conversation.'
But that's my idea, and I know how that there is different ways a discussion can go, as well as how the entry should have been handled.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-10 01:43 am (UTC)No, no, I meant that D/s is totally different than top = dom & bottom = sub. As far as I know, seme/uke is just the Japanese (fandom?) way of saying D/s.
And no, we weren't discussing how D/s is illogical or sexist (because it isn't) but - as I said - how that being on top (i.e. doing the penetrating) is automatically taken to mean that one is in charge/dominating/manly, and that similarly being on bottom (i.e. being penetrated) is automatically taken to mean that one is submissive/meek/womanly is illogical and sexist.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-09 07:44 pm (UTC)