indeedsir_backup | Sorry about that, guys

Did I miss something?

It's Tuesday. I never could get the hang of ~~Thursdays~~ Tuesdays.

1- 42.
2- The OP posted something about semes/ukes, and apparently something happened. Normal fandom chatter, I would've assumed, but I missed it as well.

Acune idée.

Oh rightio.

I hope everything didn't blow up too badly. I mostly stayed away from the entry when it first came up, because the topic's not my cup of tea, but I can still see why others would be interested in talking about it.
Deleting the entry probably was a better idea then keeping it up; no reason to keep the argument alive and accessible.

Terribly sorry to but in - well, not really - but arguments are a good thing. However would anything change if the line of thought was "no reason to keep the argument alive and accessible"?

And yes, it's possible that it would've changed something. Maybe a new person would've joined the comm, found the thread, realized new things, and written the kinds of fics that are rare in this fandom. (As well as got more aware of their own and other people's socially conditioned line of thinking.) Who knows. Either way, it's not like the argument would've killed this community or its peace or anything.

And it's not like it would've been "alive" that long - a couple of days and it would've been so far back in people's flists they'd have started to forget the whole thing.

Btw, I'm not trying to cause an argument here. Really I'm not, lol.

Maybe argument was the wrong word choice. When I read some of the comments to the entry, it didn't seem like a discussion. Or the 'agree to disagree' type.

Don't understand your second sentence.

And I agree discussing something is good, but it shouldn't blow up to the point were people are posting unnecessary comments, and etc. Of course, I have my own opinion on what an unnecessary comment is.

And now that you brought it up, I see what you mean about new (fic) ideas being generated.

D/S is also another topic that I've seen to be okay with some people, and not with others. So the seme/uke problem kind of confused me. I probably wouldn't have made a big difference in another comm.

Of course, I didn't read the whole post, so I don't understand everything that happen. It's possible that I just happened to read the only bad comments.

And you're right, after a couple of days, I'm sure people would have forgotten about the whole thing.

But my point is, from what I assumed, (and yeah I know assuming is bad) it didn't look like a discussion. And maybe deleting the post wasn't such a good idea, but I wasn't there, so I don't know.

Also my previous comment was probably influenced but what happened early to me that day. My mom was really anger with someone else, and she asked me "mediate", because she won't talk when she gets that way. After all that yelling, I just couldn't stand any kind of disapproving words.

And don't worry I know that you weren't trying to start an argument :)

Last I looked, it was evolving into a discussion, if not already a discussion. At any rate, it was interesting and people were exchanging ideas, and even a question or two were asked.

However would anything change if the line of thought was "no reason to keep the argument alive and accessible? = If people keep stiffling arguments, no change or new ideas will occur. Kind of like, somebody says something, say, misogynist and if you complain, you get told "don't cause an argument, it was just a joke". So you keep your mouth shut and the misogynist jokes continue, and nobody's way of thinking gets changed or even challenged.

"And I agree discussing something is good, but it shouldn't blow up to the point were people are posting unnecessary comments, and etc. Of course, I have my own opinion on what an unnecessary comment is."

Indeed, you have. I don't remember any particularly unnecessary comments - well, I think there were two expressing the sentiment "not Japan, AGAIN," and a couple saying "they have a bit of both in them," but that was it. And those weren't part of the discussion.

"D/S is also another topic that I've seen to be okay with some people, and not with others. So the seme/uke problem kind of confused me. I probably wouldn't have made a big difference in another comm."

Not the same thing. Seme/uke was being used with the idea that top = dom & bottom = sub, which is what became a topic of discussion. D/s is totally different, and whether people feel ok about it is irrelevant when the subject was that the top = dom & bottom = sub idea is illogical and sexist.

I guess we just have different opinions on how discussions should take place. I think that arguing about anything fandom related can quickly get out of hand, and I thought that was the case. But again, I didn't read much, so I'm just guessing.

I don't understand your last paragraph. I had thought seme/uke, and d/s had the same idea to them. Were they discussing how s/u was illogical and sexist? Because then I believe that would be unnecessary to the discussion, since the topic was how s/u could be applied to J/W. 'Don't like what's being talked about, and can't come up with a reasonable comment to state your ideas, then you probably shouldn't enter the conversation.'

But that's my idea, and I know how that there is different ways a discussion can go, as well as how the entry should have been handled.

Well, you're guessing wrong. Anything wasn't even remotely reminding things getting out of hand.

No, no, I meant that D/s is totally different than top = dom & bottom = sub. As far as I know, seme/uke is just the Japanese (fandom?) way of saying D/s.

And no, we weren't discussing how D/s is illogical or sexist (because it isn't) but - as I said - how that being on top (i.e. doing the penetrating) is automatically taken to mean that one is in charge/dominating/manly, and that similarly being on bottom (i.e. being penetrated) is automatically taken to mean that one is submissive/meek/womanly is illogical and sexist.

I agree. I don't know what happened in that post but sweeping it under the carpet can't be the solution.

...

*joins the mildly confused group*

I saw that post in my flist, but had to catch a bus...I'm...glad it's over?

Can I drop in a note to say I love this? Yeah, just look at that face!

Bertie is such a puppy. He's not very bright and he accidentally makes messes in places he shouldn't, but if you look at him and never want to hug him/scratch him on the head/feed him a biscuit, you have no soul.

Ooohh... He sure is. I'd rather keep hugging/scratching him all the time if that's all right with you. LOL.

Also, be friended by moi?

Sure!

*is completely lost* Lawl. I didn't read the entry, but I hope nobody bit your head off or anything...

No one really did, but there did seem to be a general consensus of negativity.

Aw. I liked the discussion, even if I'm not fond of the terms. Discussion is good!

I know, but I saw the word "rant" enough times to make me a little nervous.

What rants may or may not have evolved, though, I dare say wouldn't have been directed at you but the general way people think. I understand your concern, but...

(Btw, I'm using this icon not to shake the salt shaker I mention below but because I don't get to use this icon often enough.)

Hilarious! Seriously; that is one pure dead brilliant icon XD I don't suppose I could borrow it a little for my IM thing, could I?

I know, right? Pure brilliance. :D

I didn't make it, so I can't give the permission - you can find the appropriate info on my icon page (unless it says "???", in which case who-knows-how-many icon thefts have already occurred). :)

Hey, aren't you in the Die Hard fandom too? I've occasionally felt like that frog icon of yours is everywhere.

XD Yes, I work in mysterious ways my fandoms to permeate with fic! I'm in Die Hard, Harry Potter, House MD, Reaper, Prison Break, Pirates... and so on. *whispers* Don't tell anyone, but this is my favourite! :P

Well, I'm only in Die Hard out of those - and here, obviously, lol - but first I read an insane amount of fics in hard4brains and then came here to read an insane amount of fics, so no wonder I've seen you around. :P
I think this is my favourite, too. Such friendly people. Shh! ;)

Hardly seems like a reason to delete the post. There wasn't really any wank, no fighting or even any arguing-- just discussion. Actually, it wasn't even that negative, so I'm a little confused, really.

I wish you hadn't deleted.

I saw the entry and thought it seemed pretty normal.
WTF?

What's Jeeves doing to make Bertie look like that, do you think? Just wondering because I do believe that is Jeeves's arm in the left bottom corner.

I don't remember, but it was in Jeeves Saves the Cow Creamer after the chase scene where Bertie is running from the police.

D'aww. I thought is was all okay-normal little fandom clash, as long as it passes I don't put too much attention to it.

XD And what IS Jeeves doing, may I ask?

I don't remember, but it was in Jeeves Saves the Cow Creamer after the chase scene where Bertie is running from the police.

I saw the post, but only the first few comments, so don't know what went on. Hugs to you.

Thankles.

*twists the knife in the wound and proceeds to stand over it with a salt shaker at the ready**

I'm more pipped about your deleting the entry than posting it. There was interesting discussion going on! People were possibly getting food for thought and evolving their thinking (I hope)! I wanted to see how it would have evolved since I last read!

Ack, I do not like it when fandom folks think turmoil is bad - it may not be nice, but it doesn't mean everybody hates each other, or the person who originated it. People are bound to clash on the Internet just as well as IRL, it's 100% unavoidable, and there's nothing wrong with it - and usually it blows over pretty fast, and nobody is left with hard feelings. At its best, it can clear the atmosphere and even improve the comm.

Don't think I have anything specifically against *you* though. Or anyone else, actually, for that matter. That's not the case. And hey, I do have an inkling as to how you're feeling - it wasn't that long ago when I unwittingly caused turmoil in another fandom. I thought the use of (excessive) violence as a comedy tool was a good idea for discussion - not so, apparently! Hey, at least no-one called you a troll! XD (Or said "GTFO" and other nasty things. I'm glad I'm not an emotional type of person.)

*I accidentally knocked my salt shaker to the floor IRL right after writing this. Rather amused me.

This. My thoughts exactly.

It was a nice, pleasant discussion about D/s, the fandom, terms, fics... personally, there wasn't really any negativity. Everyone seems calm to me. It was just another fandom discussion, thankfully lacking wank.

I'd personally rather the discussion could have continued.

I have to admit that one of the reasons I freaked out was because my accidentally stirring up fandom turmoil has only happened once before, ever. I know that people are bound to clash, so I don't really venture out into forums and such because I like to stay where I figure it's least likely to happen (I know you said that no one called me a troll, but people saying that the topic was irrelevant had about the same effect). I look at our lovely fandom here and I think "oh! Here's a nice group of sophisticated well-read people" so when a post started getting some negativity, it registered in my brain as "not normal. Do something."

Also, I realized after I'd deleted the post that it hadn't even been up for 24 hours. But I'm glad you found it interesting!

Well, if you don't like that sort of thing and rarely see it, I guess it can freak you out. Edited because I belatedly realized I was possibly a bit condescending, and definitely made an assumption there wasn't any reason to make. I try.

But but but, it IS normal that sometimes negativity happens. Damn, it'd be unnormal if it didn't happen. I'd go as far as to say that, in a group of sophisticated well-read people, as you say, people are more used to using their brain and so are generally more critical than the ignorant masses. And while the ignorant masses, I think, tend to get more defensive, personal, and insulting (which to me explains why you thought of a more sophisticated people getting a bit negative as "not normal"), more sophisticated people can actually discuss.

(As a sidenote, on my - relatively small - fandom experience, in TV fandoms defensiveness/getting personal/insults is more common than in book fandoms. I find it interesting, and rather telling.)

I know you said that no one called me a troll, but people saying that the topic was irrelevant had about the same effect

Really? I was mostly amused when they called me a troll. Anyway, I think there have been way more irrelevant posts. (Why House and ABOFAL have tags is beyond me. And the tag "off-topic" is rather telling, methinks. :)) If you'd used different words (i.e. dom/sub instead of foreign seme/uke) and hadn't imposed the idea that top = dom and bottom = sub, people would've discussed what you intended them to discuss.* You weren't too far off.

*Which I think was "which one of them is more dominant and which more submissive?", though because of the aforementioned top/dom, bottom/sub fallacy, it could've also been "which one of them does the buggering?" Although I must confess your exact words are fading from my memory. (And it's 4am, which doesn't much improve my thinking, lol.)

Edited 2009-06-10 01:15 (UTC)

You do have a point about the terminology. I honestly wasn't thinking about an English equivalent, as my current Britspasm is fairly recent and is temporarily ousting my usual Japanophilia.

And I noticed your point about TV/movie/video-game fandoms being a bit touchier than book fandoms. As much as I love the show, there's a reason I'm not part of any House groups ^^;

True. I hang around the House fandom a lot (I just love House), and the 'disagreements' there, are so much more worse and caustic than this. TV fans are kinda more touchy about their show. The comments(insults) get very personal at times.

I like the easygoing 'Bertie-shness' of this place.

If you'd used different words (i.e. dom/sub instead of foreign seme/uke) and hadn't imposed the idea that top = dom and bottom = sub, people would've discussed what you intended them to discuss. [...] Which I think was "which one of them is more dominant and which more submissive?", though because of the aforementioned top/dom, bottom/sub fallacy, it could've also been "which one of them does the buggering?"

Must say that as one of those involved in the original comments this is precisely what I felt about it. I still might have challenged the premise of the question - i.e. that notion that it is clear-cut and there are specific roles involved, either in this or in any other relationship - but it would have been a lot easier to engage with the subject without the Japanese references. In fact, if you wanted to start again and phrase the question in a different way I think you'd find people very willing to discuss it.

But like a lot of others I'm sorry you felt deletion was your only option. I know many of us made our points fairly strongly but I wasn't aware that it had become particularly unpleasant. I think you should definitely give it another try.

So... am I the only person here who not only completely missed it but has no idea what the hell it means? I'm assuming it's related to anime in some way?

It is, and that's why a lot of people were dismissing it as irrelevant in this fandom. Quite frankly, I thought that since there was a Jeeves manga now, it was more relevant.

I'm sorry you felt dog-piled. However, in the future please don't delete your posts; if you really want them gone you can ask the mods and we'll consider it, but deleting for the most part only causes confusion. I was keeping an eye on the post to make sure no one resorted to name calling or outright rudeness, but now that it's deleted I can't take another look and make sure.

Cute macro :)

Thanks for chiming in. Will you edit the profile accordingly to state the politics of the comm? If there is wank, then the mods can still freeze comments/disable comments for a while.

I'll bring it up with the other mods and see what we can come up with. Thanks for the suggestion!

Thanks for clearing that up ^^;

Sorry about that, guys

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