indeedsir_backup | World War II

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World War II

Hello all!

A few questions on canon and historical context occurred to me and I was wondering if anyone could help with them? The topic is fairly seasonal, given the time of year.

Am I right in thinking that in Ring For Jeeves, there is either no mention of Bertie serving in WWII or it's hinted at that he didn't serve? Is there any mention/lack of mention of the same for Jeeves?

Setting RFJ aside and briefly dragging our beloved characters into the real world, can anyone tell me whether either Bertie or Jeeves would have been conscripted? There was certainly a period during which the British government conscripted most men between the ages of 20 and 41. Taking a fairly general view of the likely ages of both, this would seem to affect both Jeeves and Bertie. Also, would Bertie's class have affected this in any way? For instance, was there a trend for conscription to affect the lower classes before the upper classes?

I'm afraid that my grasp of WWII era social dynamics and politics is shallow at best. Also a copy of Ring For Jeeves is impossible for me to get my hands on at the moment. Really looking forward to hearing peoples thoughts and opinions on this!

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I think in general Wodehouse liked to pretend that the war hadn't happened. Indeed in real life he seems to have spent a long time trying to ignore its existence, which got him into terrible trouble and led to his permanent move to the USA in 1955. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._G._Wodehouse.)

Someone with money, like Bertie, would have had options; he could simply have left the country at the start of the war and waited it out in some neutral place like South America or the Caribbean. Plenty of people did. Jeeves, naturally, would have gone with him. Alternatively if he was pro-War he could have decided to join up at an early stage and found himself an appropriate role - either combatant or non-combatant depending on your view of his character. A third option would be to secure a job in a 'reserved occupation' both for himself and for Jeeves; farming or forestry, perhaps, or the insurance business or railways - the possibilities are legion. And there is always the vexed question of whether they are in fact fit for active duty; such small things as flat feet, perforated eardrums or colour-blindness could have kept them out of the services, and if either had a record of, say, asthma, that would, too. I don't think class enters into it as far as the conscription business goes, but men with money had more options and could pre-empt conscription by already being in jobs of their own choosing or, indeed, well out of its range if they preferred.

Wow, I never knew about his wartime history before. What unforunate and bizarre circumstances for him. I never realised that's why he left for the states.

I cannot see Bertie backing down from his duty to his country. I just... no. And the same for Jeeves. However, I really liked the points you raised. Though I should imagine that there was quite a lot of social stigma attached to fleeing in the face of conscription?

I should imagine that there was quite a lot of social stigma attached to fleeing in the face of conscription?

Some, certainly, but not necessarily 'a lot'. There is never only one point of view about anything, so there would be people who would criticise it, but there would also be plenty who would not. It wasn't the same as the First World War, when girls used to hand out white feathers to accuse non-combatant men of cowardice; the world had learned exactly how grim modern warfare could be.

But I think Bertie would probably find a way of doing his duty by his country without exposing himself to personal danger. He could well be in uniform but in a non-combatant role - in Supply or the Pay Corps for example. And one has to ask whether he'd actually be any use as a front-line officer; does he have any relevant skills? (Jeeves does, of course. It would be amusing if Jeeves ended up in a higher rank than Bertie.)

http://emeraldreeve.livejournal.com/

You might want to have a discussion with her. She's done very extensive research on the period and has been writing a very long fic about the guys and World War II.

Oooh thanks! :D

It was mentioned in RFJ that Jeeves "dabbled" in WWI, and Rowcester (sp?) said he had been in WWII, but that was the only mention of wars in the book, I think, and nobody asked where Jeeves and Bertie had been during WWII.

I assumed Jeeves became a spy and Bertie was found unfit for combat. Bertie probably became a mover and a shaker on the home front, as the Code of the Woosters would not have allowed him to abandon England during a war.

Found the excerpt!

Bill breathed heavily.
‘Were you in the First World War, Jeeves?’
‘I dabbled in it to a certain extent, m’lord.’
'I missed that one because I wasn't born, but I was in the Commandos in this last one. This is rather like waiting for zero hour, isn't it?'
'The sensation is not dissimilar, m'lord.'

I agree with your point of view that Bertie would not back out from serving his duty in the war.

Thanks so much for typing this excerpt out for me! It's great to actually read the words after hearing it referred to in discussions. :D

Another point: men that were single were called up before married men. There were general guidelines but that's all they were. I read a true account of a man who was 40 and was called up at the beginning of the war but that wasn't the usual case. And a man might get out of serving if he had a one man business and could show evidence that his business would suffer if he was called. And then there were the conchies. There's an actual list of when an age group was likely to be called. I have it if you want it.

Wodehouse had vision problems and was not allowed to serve in WWI.

I have various reasons for the path my story has taken including the fact that I don't believe Bertie would leave England in its time of need.

Anyway, I'll help you, if I can.

I would really like to see that age group list please! Would you e-mail it to me? I'm at whencutleryattacks $ at $ hotmail $ dot $ com (removing all spaces and dollar signs).

I'm loving Troubled Times so far, how they're dealing with it together. I am curious though as to why you decided Bertie and Jeeves would stay in England? Although if you don't want to have to explain your reasoning then just tell me to push off! ;)

Anyway, I'll help you, if I can.

Thank you ♥ , you're very kind.

I'll be mailing it to you shortly.

As for why I decided for Bertie to stay in England-my reasons are those given by bertiebwriting, who said: "The sort of person who allows themselves to go to jail for 30 days rather than see their aunt sacrifice her cook does not up and flee when their country is threatened. He might not have enjoyed the idea of stealing cow creamers, nor might he enjoy the idea of bearing arms and getting shot at, but, I repeat, he was not a coward. Think of how often and how proudly he recalls the history of his ancestors and the battles they fought in."

I'll add that I don't think Bertie's Code would let him leave when his country needed him the most. As for Jeeves, I believe Jeeves had a strong sense of duty and would not have wished to leave, either. I had them leave London simply because I believe that Jeeves would see that it was not safe there {the government was giving out evacuation instructions before the war started} and would want Bertie to leave. It's one thing to not help when they could and another to just stay in danger when it does not aid the country at all. There's more to this but it involves spoilers.

I'm glad you like Troubled Times and I'm always willing to answer questions about why I did something or anything about it. Just let me know if you don't want spoilers.I never mind explaining my reasoning.

I didn't mean 'why didn't Bertie flee to foreign parts?' so much as, why did you decide that they were unlikely to be called up? I personally agree with you that neither Bertie or Jeeveswould abandon their duty.

Thank you for sending me that information! I'm very sorry this is such a late reply. I love spoilers, they make the anticipation greater for me and the actual reading all the sweeter for it. :)

Sorry about that! As for why they haven't been called up in my story and why I felt it not likely, it's due to their probable age. If Bertie was in his 20s in the 1920s then by 1938, he'd be at least 35. Jeeves' age is pretty much an unknown but most people do not believe he is younger than Bertie. So making Jeeves as young as is likely, one would make Jeeves' age around Bertie's which would make him beyond the typical call up age, also. If older than Bertie by even as little as 5 years, he would not be likely to be called up. If Bertie was 42 in 1942 then it's likely that he would never be called up. I used the list/info. I sent you to determine whether they'd get called up. By the time my story reaches the year where there is a possibility of them being called, I'll have them out of the Home Guard and doing vital work that will prevent their being called up. I think where I'm putting them at is the best place they could be for England's sake and very likely what would have happened.

I too don't see Bertie leaving England. In fact, that seems preposterous to me. Bertie wasn't a coward. The sort of person who allows themselves to go to jail for 30 days rather than see their aunt sacrifice her cook does not up and flee when their country is threatened. He might not have enjoyed the idea of stealing cow creamers, nor might he enjoy the idea of bearing arms and getting shot at, but, I repeat, he was not a coward. Think of how often and how proudly he recalls the history of his ancestors and the battles they fought in.

Phew. I feel strongly about this in case you couldn't tell.

Class had nothing to do with who was called up. If you were a coal miner, or worked in law enforcement or as a fireman, I believe you would not be conscripted, or at least be less likely. But a member of the aristocracy would hardly have anything better to do, so if you look at it that way, as a class they may have been more likely to go to war, not less - perhaps. I might be clutching at straws there, but the point is that WW2 really did affect everybody in Britain. It blurred those lines between classes and between genders, too. Everyone was rationed and everyone made sacrifices, and the country was never the same again. (I'm sure there were a few exceptions, but it certainly wasn't a case of all the rich carried on as normal while all the working classes did everything.)

Class also did not affect when you'd be demobilised (released from service). I think women were demobilised sooner than men, but other than that it was decided based solely on age and year called or commissioned.

One thing class would have affected is what their ranking would be. I'm told from research I've done that someone in Bertie's position would have had some experience as an Officer Cadet while in public school. This would mean that he'd be more likely to get a commission as an officer (lieutenant, captain, major, etc) rather than a lower ranking private or sergeant. If Jeeves had previous experience in WWI, he too would be more likely to get a commission, I think.

Bear in mind that being called up didn't necessarily mean serving overseas.
And I wonder if Bertie and Jeeves would both be a bit too old for anything but Home Guard by the time WW2 broke out. It all depends on how old you think they are and in what year most of the stories take place, something Wodehouse seems to have kept deliberately obscure. Ring For Jeeves is the only Jeeves novel that is really set in a specific socio-political context, I think.

Having said all that I've been working on a fic in which both of them did serve overseas - I chose to ignore the constraints of period accuracy, since it never seemed to bother Wodehouse much anyway! Which is why I've been researching so much.

I've always been of the impression that there were more conchies in WW1 than in WW2, though I am very much of the impression than emeraldreeve has done the most research on this subject! Though I've chosen to write about Jeeves and Bertie as soldiers overseas, I personally think that emeraldreeve's epic piece is probably the most historically accurate thing you'll read in terms of the war and what Jeeves and Bertie's roles would be.

I'm sorry, I'm still very vague about the details of WW2, the calling up (we don't call it a 'draft' there) and the demobilisation afterwards, even though I've tried to research a lot. It's such a big subject.

emeraldReeve - my own war fic is being left to sort of germinate at the moment, but would it be ok if I asked you some questions some time? I have tried so hard with research and I get the impression you've had more success with it than me!

Sorry for this babbling blithering ramble. I didn't really work hard on this post, I just typed. It's late. Sorry.

I feel the same way about Bertie. I just can't see him leaving the country. You summarized my feelings on the matter very well.

It's very possible for them to have served overseas. Older men did serve overseas, even if most of them were young.

There were reserved occupations and people in them did not get called up.

Anyway, I don't want to comment on everything you said as I don't consider myself an expert in this matter. WWII is indeed a vast subject. I've studied it for two years now and I'm still learning things.

Thank you for the kind words!

Certainly any time you wish to ask me something, feel free to do so. I'll help if I can. I'm at:

emeraldreeve@gmaildotcom

I'm looking forward to your fic!

It's very possible for them to have served overseas. Older men did serve overseas, even if most of them were young.

Did you ever come across any reasoning for this?

WWII is indeed a vast subject. I've studied it for two years now and I'm still learning things.

In your research did you ever come across a documentary called World at War? I'm wondering how reliable an information source it is. Although apparently (as it was filmed in the 70s) it has interviews with several key military figures from the war.

Reasoning for most being young or for older men serving? I'm guessing older men. My reasoning is due to the fact that there were older men overseas. {I have a big stack of books by computer. One is Time's D-Day Anniversary issue, and I'm getting some ages from there.}. General Bradley was 50. Percy Hobart had been dismissed into retirement in 1940. He served first in the Home Guard and then commanded a division into Normandy. He was 56 in 1943. The oldest US fighting man in the invasion was Teddy Roosevelt, Jr. at 57. From the Internet there is: Captain Kenneth Cummins who served in the Royal Navy in WWI and the Merchant Navy in WWII. Wikipedia has him born in 1900 so he would have been in his 40s in WWII. The same for Bill Stone.

If you go here:

http://www.unithistories.com/officers/Army_officers_B02.html

and scroll down, you'll see men that served in both wars and so couldn't have been in their 20s in WWII. {You'll also see men that were probably young.} The catch with all this is that these men were military career men, so were already in the military and were not called up. It makes sense, though, that if registration reached men of age 40 in June 1941 that men in their late 30s, at least, were called up and therefore just possible that either Bertie or Jeeves were called up.

I read an account of a 40 year old who was called at the start of the war, but I don't know if I bookmarked it or not. If I find it or anything similar, I'll give you the link.

World at War is a great documentary. As far as I can tell it's a reliable documentary.

Firstly, sorry about the late reply! RL got in the way for a few days there and I wanted to have enough time to write a proper answer to your awesome comment!

I agree with you utterly. To my mind Bertie would never abandon his duty to his country. Just as you say, a man who is so loyal to his friends and family, most of the time to his own detriment, would never bow out of doing his duty for King and Country.

But a member of the aristocracy would hardly have anything better to do, so if you look at it that way, as a class they may have been more likely to go to war, not less - perhaps.

However the class system in those times was still a firm institution in Britain. I've never seen any reference to a general trend of the rich being called up later than the poor, but I wondered if perhaps the people in charge (generally being people who were the upper class) would occasionally look at lists and maybe cross off a few names of sons or nephews or similar. It sounds so cold when put like that, but it must have been sorely tempting for many.
But now it's me clutching at straws!

but the point is that WW2 really did affect everybody in Britain. It blurred those lines between classes and between genders, too.

It's weird how these thing trickle down through the social conscience. Despite having given up history before GCSEs, I did know this. Amazing what you know without thinking about it, isn't it? Anyway, getting back on subject...

Everyone was rationed and everyone made sacrifices, and the country was never the same again. (I'm sure there were a few exceptions, but it certainly wasn't a case of all the rich carried on as normal while all the working classes did everything.)

I'll say there were exceptions! Did you ever read about Lord thingy (I completely forget his name) who was despised during WW2 for his grand parties and buying up hundreds of loaves of bread at one time while everyone was making do with rations? Everyone may have been rationed, but having money surely meant that you had a choice whether to stick to it or not. Dragging this back to our beloved characters, sense of duty aside I can see Jeeves being able to come by a bit of butter at short notice.

One thing class would have affected is what their ranking would be.

That's an interesting piece of information and explains a great deal! Especially about Lt. George in Blackadder (if the reference means anything to you). I always wondered how he made lieutenant.

It all depends on how old you think they are and in what year most of the stories take place, something Wodehouse seems to have kept deliberately obscure.

Didn't he just! I must have read a dozen well argued cases for timelines and ages on this community's archive and none of them see to agree. Like yourself, I think it's pretty flexible!

Having said all that I've been working on a fic in which both of them did serve overseas.

Really, really looking forward to reading your story! If you don't mind me asking, what countries have you sent them to?

I've always been of the impression that there were more conchies in WW1 than in WW2,

This might possibly have been due to the change in warfare style? WW1 being the first really major war that had modern artillery, but the British generals were using 'they're armed with a mango!' tactics. Part of the reason why so many were called up in WW1 me thinks. I laugh at Blackadder Goes Forth (again with the blackadder references- sorry if they mean nothing to you!), but when I stop to think about the truth behind it... *shivers*.

I'm sorry, I'm still very vague about the details of WW2, the calling up (we don't call it a 'draft' there) and the demobilisation afterwards, even though I've tried to research a lot. It's such a big subject.

Your information and suggestions have been really interesting, thank you! Agreed, it's such a huge and complex topic.

Sorry for the same thing! I hope this makes some sense to you. :)

You know, Pauline Stoker once called Bertie "Colonel" in Thank You, Jeeves. I don't know if it was a pet name, the 1930s American equivalent of "guv'nor" or what have you, or an actual military title, but upon meeting Bertie at Steeple Bumpleigh, she says:

'Well, well, well! Old Colonel Wooster in person! Fancy finding you here, Bertie! I called you up in London, but they told me you had left.'

Colonel is quite a high rank in the army, so I fancy it's not a literal reference. Perhaps it was just slang? Or perhaps it was a reference to a military career? One of the frustrating things about Wodehouse, you never know for sure!

This discussion is endlessly fascinating. I love period research, especially when it has to do with our beloved Jeeves and Wooster.

Me too. :D Glad you're finding it interesting- I was a bit hesitant about posting this incase people were bored by an almost irrelevant discussion.

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World War II

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